Remember my previous post about money-lending? Here’s an update — and it isn’t pretty.
I wrote “How much do we owe others? (And when should we walk away?)” after a recent visit with a friend to whom I’ve twice made emergency loans. The way that “Monica” is using money scared me, for reasons too numerous to list here.
(Go read the post at GRS. I’ll wait.)
I see trouble ahead once more for this family. I wish I didn’t, but I do. As I drove away I wondered if I could hold to the decision that I (sort of) made in “I’m not a payday lender. But I play one on TV.” In that post I swore I wouldn’t lend money again because it would just allow my friends to postpone getting a handle on their spending.
But I also wrote that I honestly didn’t know if I could hold to this conviction. After my visit I thought it over and decided that yes, I could. Not easily, mind you. I would cry after I hung up. But I would say it because it needs to be said.
Let me make it clear that she has not asked for anything. A few days after the visit Monica e-mailed to let me know she hadn’t forgotten the debt, and promised to pay it off by the end of the year.
I’m not holding out hope, given how many curve balls life might throw between now and then, but what a happy surprise if she manages to do that.
Anyone out there in the same situation? Once you put your foot down, how did you keep it there? How did you get past the anxiety and guilt?
I too have a Monica in my life. I have tried time after time to put my foot down but just seeing the position they are in hurts. I can say that I have lost thousands of dollars to not standing my ground and on top of that I’m not helping them out by lending them more money. I’m only enabling their bad behaviors with money and ruining our relationship, but not lending them money will also ruin our relationship. I just have to explain to them that I am in no position to be lending any money and if they don’t understand then what am I do but to hope they are true friends that would understand.
@MommaStar: Expect the relationship to change, at least for a while. Even a true friend may feel bewildered that the ATM no longer works.
I wish you luck.
Thanks for reading, and for leaving a comment.
A couple years ago, after decades of being abused by my dad, my mom decided to get a divorce and move across the country to be near my sister and nephew. She’s never lived on her own, so the whole family got together and gave her lots of moral support. And I loaned her a few grand, which I was planning to forgive at some point.
The divorce lasted about two months. Next thing I know, my mom is acting like I should be happy that they’re back together–after six months of telling me every bad thing she could about my dad, how much she regretted not looking out for us girls when we were kids, all kinds of heartbreaking stuff. Worst of all, she acted like the support her whole family had given her during the divorce was just no longer relevant.
That did it for me. It wasn’t about the money, but the attitude. We talk every once in a while, but I’ve decided not to offer any more support–financial or otherwise. I’ll probably lose my resolve when she and my dad are old and frail though. I’m already dreading that whole ambivalent process.
@Some Girl: I’m sorry to hear about your family’s situation, and can understand why you’d feel angry and betrayed.
But let me put this out there for you to consider: It is very, very hard to leave an abusive relationship. Abusers mess with your head until you can’t really think clearly. Your sense of self-worth is tied up with them, you believe them when they say that they can’t live without you, and you somehow think it really is all your fault that they’re abusive.
How do I know this? I left an emotionally and psychologically abusive long-term marriage. But it took a long time, and several attempts.
Your mom may reach out to you again about leaving. I hope you’ll be willing to listen, and to help her get to a safe place.
Thanks for reading, and for sharing your story.
Donna, you’ve GOT to hold to this conviction. Blame it on your recent travels — ‘I just don’t have the money since I went to —–‘
If you give in, you will feel terrible. Think of it this way: which will make you feel guiltier? Saying no to your friend, OR remembering what you noticed about her purchases, and the amount of careful spending and doing without you had to do in order to earn the money you would loan her?
I can turn down (regretfully) friends. Now my daughters — those are the people I have trouble saying no to.
Donna, Thanks for what you conveyed to Some Girl about abuse.
My daughter told me she was drowning after several years of assuring me she could make it alone. I had no money to help. I did buy the free-to-me school supplies and bought the granddaughter clothing on sale for $1 and panties for a quarter. When the packages of panties were opened, the panties were reduced to a quarter, same for socks and tights. I had to foot the mailing, but I kept the child in clothing for several years.
Several times, I asked her what she owed so I could help her make decisions. Finally, she told me. I was shocked to hear she had a $75 rental unit. No, she could not do without it. I suggested all sorts of ways to get it into her house that she has with no access to any storage or the back yard.
For six months, she refused, saying her house would look horrible, she could get no more in the closets or under the bed, on and on. I told her maybe when she could not pay the rent, she might not like the look of the place she would have to rent and the look of the neighborhood in NYC. Nothing worked. She was adamant.
Finally, she told me she emptied the unit. When I asked her why she decided to do so, she said her father would not lend/give her the $500 she needed until she gave up the storage unit. Maybe that is what people should do, also, negotiate loans with a few strings or self-help measures attached.
Donna, taking a stand against lending is alot easier said than done. I have been the lender many many times (with mixed return results). When one too many times paying me back was put aside while the borrowers ate meals out, and basically live a financially confused life, I decided that the resentment that it caused in me was just not worth it anymore. Like you, I have taken care of myself for quite a while and it’s not wrong to expect all grown ups who are able to, to do the same. Stay strong, it’s not easy, but your retirement plan will thank you 🙂
For a long time I let my family push me in so many ways that always made me cringe after the fact…
But thankfully I’ve always put the foot down when it came to finances.
It definitely changes the relationship once money changes hands. I’ve heard this suggestion several times over the years: tell the person that by enabling them, you feel you are abusing them. Tell them you love them too much to keep abusing them and that you want to help them instead. Then offer books, workshops, budget assistance, etc.
I’ve had a Monica in my life namely a brother and I have also been a Monica in a sense were someone has helped me. I didnt ask for help but they helped me nonetheless and I regreted it ever since. Our relationship took a beating because 6 months later the person claimed that it was a loan and not a gift even though I straight out told the person I would not accept the money unless it was a gift because I knew I couldnt pay it back. They made me question myself (my mind was a little frazzled because I just had a baby, my mom passed away and I got laid off all within 3 weeks), needless to say I paid it all back at the cost of near starvation (prideful I am). This year she admitted to me that it had indeed been a gift and that she felt guilt because she had ran into some financial difficulty and wanted the money back so she made it seem like I was crazy.
My point is Money can be a friendship changer better to get out of the habit now and look at the big picture. I no longer disscuss what I have and dont have with people and if they ask I just tell them I can’t right now sorry. I broke my own rule and helped my brother last year and we no longer talk because in his opinion I didnt help him enough. I never even asked for the money back or mentioned it. I just told him I could no longer help. We used to be super close. I regret giving him a dime.
@Rona: Oh, I am so sorry about all the things that happened. What a shame that your former friend sacrificed your feelings and put you in such a spot — especially painful given everything else that had occurred in such a short time. And what a shame that your brother believes that love is based on what you can get from another person.
Thanks for sharing your story.
I may sound like a heartless witch but friends don’t ask friends for money. Not in my universe anymore.
Some one who asks you for money is not your friend. And if they do, they are not the problem, you are the problem if you give them money.
Any relationship I had with supposed “friends” never lasted once they started leeching on me. It changed the relationship and never in a good way. The loan or gift was never a blessing to either of us. It just hastened the end of the relationship.
Family? Well that’s a whole other kettle of fish…..
@Sluggy: True, true. Although some friends might ask for money if they were desperate — and in some cases I’ll still give it.
Family, well, you’re right about that also.
Thanks for reading, and for leaving a comment.
It is hard because the borrowers KNOW what thing people will bail them out for. Of course you would send money to stop a car repo because it would cause a cascade of dramatic issues. If she had called and said “can you lend me money for 4 restaurant dinners, 8 cases of soda pop, 6 bounced check fees, and private school tuition” your response would have been different. It is unbelievable that someone would still have those spending habits after unemployment and nearly loosing the house once before. They are unfortunately a train wreck and you can’t compromise your position (or your daughter’s) because family has to be your priority. All you can do is tell them you love them, but you won’t be able to bail them out in the future, so you beg them to stop spending on unnecessary things immediately & save themselves.
By way of full disclosure, I am lending heavily to a family member to get her & the kids out of an abusive relationship. It will take them a long time to get on their feet – legal fees are hideous & safety nets aren’t enough & work is super hard to find for a mom with limited skills). A really hard choice for me because I have been out of work for over a year and am a single person. But I have followed your sage advice for years, admiring your tenacity, often wishing I had the energy to be as diligent as you!!! I subjected myself to derision from others over “unnecessary” frugality (not taking vacations, buying used, DIY, old car – easy stuff like that). I built a 3 year ’emergency fund’ because I work in an industry that outsources heavily and I knew i needed a long runway to go back to school or re-skill if the economy went bad. Well, here we are & I have picked family over going back to school (I could not afford to do both). It may be a hard road and I know I might need to sell my house next year to fund continued unemployment plus this burden; but I know I am doing the right thing for family. Others may think I am an idiot, but to my core I know it is more important to keep family safe than anything else & if that runs me broke then so be it.
If I had not been a follower of pragmatic & frugal ways I would not have had a financial runway for the current situation & I would not have a paid off house that I will be able to trade for an even longer runway. I live in an affluent area (it became that way years after I bought the house there) & have seen some dire situations in the past year where people are totally losing their homes & have no equity etc. I would hope that those people now understand why others might choose a more frugal path now & that they won’t tease or laugh at that choice any longer.
Thank you for sharing your life over the past years, so we can all learn from your lessons!!
@Diana: Thanks for your kind words. I admire your hard work and dedication to improving not just your life, but the lives of others.
I don’t envy the position you’re in with Monica. I’ve had several friends in various forms of financial dissarray and what I do is stop short of offering loans.
The only time I ever loaned money without a promissary note to a friend. was when I was 17. I loaned my entire paycheck to my “best” friend at the time and never saw her again.That did it for me – I don’t loan money without a promissory note.
Currently I have in my life a friend who is seriously ill and broke. I’ve had a few conversations with her but it’s obvious that she is not willing to make the changes that will keep her from being broke.
I had another friend who desperately (at the time) wanted to quit her job and stay home with her young children. I gave her a lesson on budgeting, a spreadsheet and frank discussion about finances. She too was unwilling to make the changes that would keep her from staying home with her children. She never asked me for money, just advice.
Do you see a theme here? In my 50+ years on the planet I’ve learned that there is a group of people that will blame their circumstances, not taking responsibility for their poor choices, then want a handout (loan on the”never, never” plan), when it is their continued wrong-headed actions that keep them in their predicaments.
In my case the tough-love method doesn’t win me any kudos from the people I’m try to help – generally these talks will change a relationship and not in a positive way.
I guess I’m in agreement with the folks who’ve commented here that a person that would ask you to loan them money (with little hope of you being repaid) are not friends. I would spend the time instead on schooling them on how they ought to be spending their money instead of repeatedly asking you to loan them money – they must know how uncomfortable this makes you feel. You should remind them – they have conveniently forgotten of your discomfort when they ask you.
They are not obliged to take your advice. You are not obliged to lend them money. It’s your money – you work hard for it and spend wisely. I see their requests for you to loan them money as a tax you are paying for making good decisions with your money.
They need to learn to do the same.
@Ro in San Diego: All true. She is apparently not ready to make those changes. Maybe they seem too hard, or too foreign, or too pointless. I can only advise her to read the PF book I sent, to check out the sites I suggested and to track every penny.
If she doesn’t do those things, she will never get out of debt.
Absolutely…with my folks just recently. And like you I was starting to wonder if I could hold fast to my decision to not bail them out. I had softened recently and had purchased things for them and declined repayment as they “were trying to get straightened out”. Then the phone call…I was needed to go pick up a “big screen TV” that was a…. bargain…and of course the thing wouldn’t fit in their car as it was over 60 inches long….so I needed to go pick it up and take it to their house. I declined to participate in the madness so they paid someone to deliver it. My thought now is….I may have to watch my folks take that drive down “crazy lane” BUT I don’t have to get in the car and I sure don’t have to put gas in the car. No more loans…freebies…etc. I will make sure my folks have heat, food and their medicine. Other than that….I’m done!!
I understand what you’re going through, Donna. The “Monica” in my life is a friend who can’t figure out the difference between a need and a want. He has never lived on his own but has always “crashed” with friends and family (he’s now 33). He does own a home but it is uninhabitable, and the utilities were disconnected for nonpayment. This last part I think was passive-aggressive on his part, as it is his excuse why he can’t live in the house or fix it up.
Last summer he informed me he might “need” to move in with me. (I own a 3 bedroom house and currently live alone.) The reason was his exgirlfriend #1 (where he is now living again) might sell her house and he would have nowhere to go. See excuse #1 why he can’t move back in his own home. Of course, I said no. He used to live with a best friend until his friend lost his house to foreclosure and also lived with girlfriend #2. Did I mention he never paid rent to any of these people? At the same time, he and GF#2 maxed out his CCs on designer dogs, tattoos, HUGE flat screen TV, cellphones, laptop, DVDs, baggies of you-know-what and on and on. He had the temerity to mention recently that the problem with the CCs (now in collections) is that he needed them for living expenses while unemployed (and also avoiding work), conveniently forgetting the luxury purchases.
Hello!! I watched while he took numerous cash advances and visited the box stores to buy these things. After another pricy expenditure on a want a few months ago, he stated that it had been almost forever since he had splurged.and he deserved it It was a good thing I had set down my coffee or I would have sprayed it out my nose!
Now, he wants me to cosign for a business loan on a “can’t miss” opportunity. It’s not like I haven’t spent years telling him of my plans to be debt free. It’s not like he hasn’t heard about my late Scandinavian father and his thrifty ways. Oh, he has. Numerous times. Yet, even though I’m an accountant, he tried to downplay the risk of cosigning, as if I’m naive. His comment was that I would be a “secondary” cosigner after exGF#1 and that the bank would merely call me if they missed the payment. Let me think about this…NO!
Good luck with your friend. I think it is time to hold your ground. My Monica has tried some sympathy moves on me, such as saying “he can sleep in his van if he has to”. Yes, you can. Yet, he still buys top of the line steaks and fancy foods and drink when he gets paid, not considering he might be eating the fancy foods from his van’s tailgate.
I will not feel obligated to take him in if he becomes homeless. Had his other friends and family said no to this behavior years ago, he might have a decent place of his own now.
@Genny: I agree you are not responsible for him, as I am not responsible for my friends’ actions. I hope that everyone gets a dose of reality — and soon.
Thanks for reading, and for leaving a comment.
Donna, remember the speech on the plane about putting your OWN oxygen mask on before trying to help anyone else with theirs’?
Same thing with all the Monica-like folks in the world. She is going to crash eventually, it really only is a matter of TIME. You can’t give up your oxygen–or parachute–to save her. It would just mean losing BOTH of you to the inevitable.
Clearly you have a kind heart, but Monica needs to hit a lot lower than she has thus far before she “gets it”. This is NOT a case where unavoidable misfortune (like severe injury from being run into by an uninsured drunk, or a spouse suddenly cleaning out the bank and taking a nineteen year old bimbo to Aruba with him) has hit out of the blue. I think we would call do what we could in those cases, but not in the face of chronic mismanagment, a victim mentality, and a sense that those “lucky” people around them OWE them help–because, hey..they HAVE money! (because they are frugal and save!)
Stand your ground–offer all the support you can that is NOT monetary!
@Pattie: I know that oxygen mask exists — in fact, I referenced it in the piece — but I still suffer from other-people-are-more-importantitis.
Getting better. though.
Thanks for reading, and for leaving a comment.
I think that I would come to you for advise first before I would lend any money out. Now if I only had money to lend!
@SonyaAnn: Does this mean you won’t lend me $20 until payday?
Lending money for me has always been a pain. Infact there are times when i really dont want to lend, but then the situation is such that i somehow manage to give it and then it a history. I know it well that its gone. And with the money is gone, the relationship also is not the same.
So when one lend or does not lend, there is a sure negaive effect on a relationship provided a rare instance when the loan is paid back.